M other tongues at the Rijksakademie

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Asan Ayan Ichnayalish Michalandikan in Lemelaru. [00:00:31] Speaker B: Listening to yaya nay nay nay recently we recorded the conversation at the reading room of the Rex Academy van Wilm Lecunste. The Rex Academy is an art residency in Amsterdam where more than 40 artists from all over the world are able to work for a period of two years. This year we are hosting several broadcasts in collaboration with artists at Darex Academy. So my name is Radna Rumping. [00:00:57] Speaker C: My name is Arif Kohenweitz. On the 31 October, we recorded mother tongues in other languages, a broadcast about how non native english speakers navigate the english speaking art world. We had readings and music and discussions with our guests Osger Atlagan, Berts, Holter, Longisvarkunta and Salim Bairi. To start out, I asked Salim, who initiated the conversation, about his motivations to do so. [00:01:24] Speaker D: It was an idea that I had because thinking of how we are all parachuted here in this place from all corners, then thinking of how like something that guttery, as your mother tongue, deals with this like displacement, and more casually, from all these Friday afternoons, we gather and we have like crits, internal crits. I was surprised to see how each one has different approach to his mother tongue or the language he speaks in his heart or daily. For example, Osgur Atla Khan had a completely different approach, so he was wondering how to translate things and had these questions. And there's another asgur that has absolutely no problem with that and he just wants to use English as a lingua franca and that's it. That's the end of it. So I thought that that's something that is worth talking about or mentioning somehow. [00:02:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:02:23] Speaker B: And is it something that you usually already talk about within, you know, artists among each other here? [00:02:29] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it's a. Sometimes a dilemma. I mean, even though we. We work with materials and images, I mean, you think somehow at some point you have to use some words. So I guess that every language has its own characteristics and how that influences the work. I think it's a. It's a. It's a discussion, and especially in contrast with English being the main thing that is used and is like in institutions and international English. So how to deal with that kind of cultural, like, monster. It's something that I'm interested in, and coming from a country that has a language that is kind of borrowed or forced in somehow, it's something that I often think about. [00:03:31] Speaker B: So what do you consider as your mother tongue? [00:03:35] Speaker D: It's funny because I feel comfortable speaking Darija. Darija is not hundred percent a language. I consider it a language, but it's a sort of kind of a bucket that just like incorporates and eats anything that it just goes through. [00:03:54] Speaker A: So just. [00:03:55] Speaker D: Yeah, French. Yeah, come in English. Just, yeah, chuck it in. Want to invent a word? Yeah, put it in. It doesn't have an academy or like rules or like old people telling you what to say and what not to say. There's rules, of course, but they are not like written in stone. So I really like how it functions and how it influences my work, because I want my work to be that. Actually, I was thinking earlier this year that it's my work. I would love it to be a darija. I would let it loose and run and the work would be the sweat of it. That's the image I had this year. [00:04:35] Speaker B: Because we were also thinking quite often when we introduce people, for instance, we mention where people are coming from and where they are based now, which is a very typical way of introducing artists, I guess. And we were doubting about that for today. We thought maybe we should speak more about what languages do you speak? [00:04:52] Speaker D: For instance, that's the thing I started to do instead of asking someone, where is he from? Just like, what language do you speak? And then immediately, you know. [00:05:02] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:05:03] Speaker D: And it's independent from geopolitics, you know, it's just something you carry with you that maybe is more meaningful than a. And national identity, you know, so it works. [00:05:17] Speaker A: Okay. [00:05:19] Speaker C: Maybe this would be a good. Maybe this would be a good question for you to introduce a next guest on the table. [00:05:26] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:05:27] Speaker C: So who are you going to ask? Which languages do you speak? [00:05:30] Speaker D: Lungi. What languages do you speak? [00:05:36] Speaker E: I speak is closer. I speak English and I speak Conglish, which is a combination of Klausa and English. Yeah. I have knowledge of Afrikaans, but I also refuse to acknowledge it by choice. But, yeah. So that's kind of my relationships to the languages I speak or understand. [00:06:03] Speaker D: What language do you dream with? [00:06:08] Speaker E: It depends who I'm speaking to in my gene. Sometimes. Yeah. It's a mixture between English and is closer. [00:06:15] Speaker A: Yes. [00:06:16] Speaker E: Yeah, it just. Yeah, it depends on the different dialogues I have with people or. So it's between those two. [00:06:24] Speaker B: And do you have the feeling that it's also the other way? Sometimes maybe you decide what language you prefer to speak in, or what language you want to dream in when you're depending on who you speak, but that it's also the other way that sometimes language is maybe imposed on you and that it affects you in a certain way, yeah. [00:06:43] Speaker E: I mean, growing up in South Africa, definitely the educational system imposes languages on you. That's what it's been doing from the get. And that's just part of our history. It's part of our history of protest, students protesting a language, you know, bantu education. Like, so it's that just kind of, for me, I grew up with English not by choice, but by force. Same as Afrikaans. And, you know, when, yeah, you go to school and two compulsory languages are English and Afrikaans, and yet your own is not one of them. You can hardly find in some schools, they don't teach your own language. And so you grow up, you know, I mean, because that's the society that we're kind of living in. Your parents kind of. Also, you go to these schools and from primary, you're raised on English, English, English, just to get a basic understanding and being able to navigate the world. Then you get to primary or high school where they force now, this other language, Afrikaans, on you. And my knowledge of having gone to an Afrikaans school and then, like an english school, it being forced upon us from primary all the way up to matric didn't do, really didn't do much. Because when you're fighting with the language at that stage, you can't. You don't learn it. You develop another relationship with it. You pick up certain things over just from repetition or recognition, but you never really learn it, especially if it's something that's continuously being forced on you. Your brain just does not open itself up to know and to learn and to understand and to embrace it. And so you end up having that kind of relationship with some language. I mean, this is why sometimes what we do now is to butcher English because it's quite like it's just become this thing also that we recognize was forced on us and we judge ourselves upon how well we speak the language, but we don't really think about, like, well, these english people speaking people. Do they know how to speak my language? [00:08:59] Speaker B: No. [00:08:59] Speaker E: So then who is illiterate here? [00:09:01] Speaker B: Right? [00:09:02] Speaker E: So, yeah, so we've gotten to a point, I think even nationally, that you can see on Instagram and on Twitter that people, like, speak the wrong English or whatever that is intentionally, you know, because now we're just trying to kind of destabilize a thing and not let it be such a huge thing that everybody is kind of pinned up against. Yeah. [00:09:30] Speaker B: How do you butcher English? Is there a certain. [00:09:32] Speaker E: Oh, there's some ways that people have in common? No, I mean, it depends where you are. You know, it's like, part of a slang sometimes. We. Yeah, so when someone butchered English, we used to call it George. So George is English. So when we speak, like, when someone butchers English and we're like, yo, we George. And then that means, like, wow. The English that you're coming with is just on life support right now, so. But there's different ways you can pronounce it. You can mix it with your own language. Like I said, tonglish. You know, like, you can do so many things to just kind of make it not a serious thing, make it accessible in a weird way, make it okay to not be able to speak the language. And so, yeah, it becomes quite fun. [00:10:24] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:10:25] Speaker D: It happens to me with friends in certain situations. We speak this French, this good French. You know, you can speak it. But then when we are, like, relaxed, we are, like, at the whole back home, then we just speak it as it goes out of your mouth, you know, and then you just loosen up and it feels nice. Sometimes it doesn't work as well and efficiently, but it. It comes more from the heart, you know? [00:10:51] Speaker B: This is true. [00:10:53] Speaker C: How does it work? How does it work here at the Reichs Academy? [00:10:59] Speaker E: How does what work in the Reichs Academy? [00:11:01] Speaker C: I mean, what kind of language or what kind of version of English is everyone speaking? [00:11:06] Speaker D: Yeah, I mean, it's different levels, different styles, different accents. It's. Yeah, there's like, a standard English. There is a. When it comes to speaking about art, you tend to borrow a lot of things from school and it gets watered down and it's. It's a. It's clumsy and because, you know, it's. It's funny sometimes. Disasters. Disasters. Disasters writing. And it's a bit of a problem, but don't really know how if there's a way to make it right without being cryptic or. So it's either you make it a lot accessible to a lot of people, but the quality drops or little people, and the quality is more meaningful. It's a bit like broth. Yeah. Can have a lot more. Little and good. You know, I see it like that. [00:12:13] Speaker B: This reminds me a bit of. Because you also mentioned some references, saleem, for instance, this essay that Hito Steol wrote some years ago already. And it's called international disco Latin, if I'm correct. Yeah. And it was a response on another essay that Alex Ruhl and David Levine wrote about international art English, which was from 2012, I think. And they were kind of attacking the certain English and the jargon that is used within contemporary art. A lot and within press releases and announcements of exhibitions, where there's a lot of poor translations from maybe french theory or from more like latin based languages. And as a response, Hito Steol said, yeah, but it's so easy to attack that because who's actually writing those press releases? They are often underpaid interns from all kinds of countries and backgrounds who didn't maybe learned what we consider as an official English or the correct English. So it's so easy to attack that. On the other hand, maybe we should go further with it. Maybe we should butcher it or glitch it even more. And maybe I can read a little bit from this essay how hito Stero kind of ends. And then she says, this is the template for the language I would like to communicate in a language that is not policed by formerly imperial, newly global corporations, nor by national statistics. A language that takes on and confronts issues of circulation, labor and privilege, or at least manages to say something at all. A language that is not a luxury commodity nor a national birthright, but a gift, a theft, an excess or waste made between Skopje and Saigon by interns and non resident aliens on emoji keyboards to opt for international disco. Latin also means committing to a different form of learning, since disco also means I learn, I learn to know, I become acquainted with, preferably with music that includes heaps of accents and for free. And in this language, I will always prefer anus over bonus, oral over moral, satin over Latin, shag over shack. You're welcome to call this pornographic, discographic, alienating, or simply weird and foreign, but I suggest, let's take a very fucking english lesson. That's the conclusion. But how do you deal with English, for example, Salim? Like, do you butcher it as well? Or are you trying to speak it correctly or not caring about it within this art context? [00:15:02] Speaker D: Yeah, I mean, I can use it as precise as I want, like in a descriptic, as a tool, you know, and then I do my best in that sense and ask for help. But then you have the butcher version of it, and it's more strange and more personal and more cryptic. And I think I just keep it for myself. That part, or just informally. But when you think about it, all the residents that are here had to go through a selection process that is English based. And you write in English and you have to double check it. So it's a bit of a dilemma. This institution that wants to englobe a lot of people, but uses this. This language that is super specific, actually, because my brain is trained to speak art, English, because I went to school, etc. Etcetera. So, for example, with my friends, like the ones I grew up with, we speak in Moroccan, and then if we want to go to like, I don't know, then we include some french things. But then when it comes to art, I can't do it in Arabic, I have to do it in English because my brain was washed like that. So it's funny, I just see it as a tool. You have various tools in your head and you use the one that suits you in the moment. I see it like that. But it's good to twist the neck of it sometimes and think of different ways to say things and also not censor yourself. I think that's the worst when you start sounding like someone else that you are not. So I refuse to do that. I want to sound as close as my heart as possible. It's not easy, but. [00:17:18] Speaker B: And do you. Because there's also this issue where we switch to English, which we are even doing right now, to be able communicate with each other. Right. So you want to. Yeah, to be heard. And also when you're making art, you do that for yourself, but you also do that to reach people or to. It's a mediation between what's happening internally and, you know, exhibiting something or making something public. And I'm wondering, yeah, if so switching to English then has a purpose in that sense for reaching people. But maybe sometimes you don't want that. That you only want to reach very specific people or not everyone. [00:18:00] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah, that's true. I mean, sometimes I just post something online and I just do it as I feel like doing it. So I do it in Moroccan or sometimes maybe in French, and then it's fine, you know, you don't understand it. And even if you try to translate it, there's no, like, accurate way to do it because say, like a more obscure language. So, I mean, it's. I wouldn't like to stop myself from doing that. I would be able to be cryptic as long it doesn't have work. Sometimes obscure or not friendly to every single human in the world. You know, you don't have to do that. And it's a tendency that is like, politically correctness and accessibility and include every single body in the world. And sometimes it's. It's good not to do that. It's fine because we're like, here to make things and don't have to please everyone or make everyone understand. And because also I feel that this in English, most of the times I use it as a spotlight like a strong light to reveal things because it's descriptive and more or less accurate. And it just shows every side of a thing, for me, at least. But when it's not necessary, then I use all the strategies. [00:19:36] Speaker B: And nungi, how do you deal with that in your work, with this accessibility or opacity, that can also be a strategy. [00:19:45] Speaker E: Yeah. So, I mean, in my work, accessibility is quite a present thing, or lack thereof. So I challenge ideas of accessibility and who has access to what a lot with just the things that I make. So the language then is used as, like, a way to do that again, through the text, through the titles. I like to give my show. All my shows that I've had so far have the titles of them have words for my languages. And it's not sometimes like. And both have been like words that you can't translate. So my first show was called Kokope, which means an empty container. But when we use the word kokope, we are alluding to an empty matchbox. So it's like, if you have to also kind of understand the context in which the word is said to really kind of get it so you can figure it out, but you still won't know really what it is that I'm kind of speaking about. And the other one is the next show was called Koita, which was the act of lighting a match. So there's no. So when I have to translate in whatever way I can, I have to use so many things that you will understand. It's like the act of, you know, but we have one word for it and we understand the act and the meaning for it. And so I like to use the language in that way. And when I'm kind, you know, it's hard for me to, like you said, salim, like, train. I'm trained in, like, a western academic kind of system. I'm very good at speaking English. I'm really great at writing it, you know, like, I can get away with a lot of shit. And I do that. I do that sometimes when I'm speaking to people. So, like, codeswitch, right? In whatever environment I'm in and I have to present my work to somebody and whatever. Sometimes it just happens subconsciously that I'm just like, I've been talking and I'm like, oh, damn. And I'm looking at myself from outside of myself, like, yo, you are deep in this and you didn't even know you are out here using all of these academic fits. I'm like, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow. Reel it in. Read it in. And then I just, like, I just start to make it kind of, like, conversational because I hate that thing of, like, the exclusiveness that the academic language in itself has. So I try, and I don't try write in an academic language unless I'm submitting a paper. I don't like to speak of my work in that way, you know, because I'm just like, that's, I'm not making my work for majority academics. I'm actually making my work for everybody else. So for me, it's important to always engage with, like, language in that way, to make it accessible for the people I want it to. And then, and I can't use English to describe certain feelings that I have or about, like, or what energies certain spaces have. Like, English doesn't have those words or phrases to use about this thing that I'm talking about. Like that smell when you walk into someone's foot, like, freshly polished red stoop on a Sunday, and you smell the, like you don't, you know, there's just certain things that you're trying to, you know, create the experience of in your space, and you just, you don't know. So you end up, like, using, like, sounds as your language, you know, like someone's like, oh, how's it, ah, when you say that? I know exactly what you mean. I'm just, you don't have to explain anything other than, huh? And that's it, you know, that's all. And so you use, you kind of grasp for these things that you can use that have more emotion than just the words to kind of have access or to be able to communicate with somebody. [00:23:46] Speaker D: Yeah, more than that. And for me, it's not only a matter of vocabulary, but it's a matter of worldview. So through a language, you see the world in a certain way. For example, I know Indonesia in Morocco. And, like, there's not, there isn't a word for it, you know, things. So things are people. They're like entities. So, for example, if you drop the glass in the floor, say, the water jumped to the floor, so it has its own thing. So when I put my darija brain, I see this world coming to life, and it's, it's fantastic. Sometimes I like to do that in, in my work, working on the computer. It's really a lens more than just words, you know? That's what I like. That's what I like. [00:24:39] Speaker B: And how do you keep your Dereja brain alive in a context where not everyone speaks the same? [00:24:45] Speaker D: Yeah, I mean, that's why we're like visual artists. [00:24:47] Speaker B: So do you speak to yourself also or in the mind? [00:24:53] Speaker D: Yeah, in the studio, I put these different brains in my head and then work freely and shifting things from one to another and then trying to find, like. Yeah, it's like a puzzle. It's fun, but yeah. Work with images and material and somehow it sinks. Some of that thing sinks. Permeates the work. I hope. So. That's all I can do. [00:25:21] Speaker A: Hopefully. [00:25:26] Speaker C: We are speaking English the whole time. Recite longi because you brought a track. [00:25:35] Speaker E: Oh, yeah. [00:25:36] Speaker C: You want to introduce it. [00:25:39] Speaker E: So the track is by Laliboy and it's titled Emondi. Emonti is like our closer version for east London back home in South Africa. So I'm from eBay and so he's from Emund. So he made a song about Emund and. Yeah, it's in closer and it's amazing. [00:26:02] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:26:21] Speaker E: Up and yay. [00:26:33] Speaker B: Ramona God. [00:27:17] Speaker F: But. [00:27:23] Speaker D: I'm. [00:27:24] Speaker F: A daughter could be motor car BMW Mr. Disbanding why you might want to dance. I go then in sandy tanky sangamina God so yeah, but. [00:28:09] Speaker B: Woman I got about them Roma. [00:28:34] Speaker F: Yeah kiss some fit women for the sungliba Mr. Baloit Loyn Shindo don Magna bad batting costume shindling chain cascasump Shin lane chain costume shindling when I'm doc and goscasum Shin lane chain cost castom Shin Lane. [00:29:33] Speaker B: Robo naka. [00:30:15] Speaker C: We'Re back for the second half of mother tongues and other languages at the Rijks Academy. With us now, our Bert Scholzen and Oskar Atlagan. Welcome. [00:30:29] Speaker A: Hello. [00:30:30] Speaker G: Hello. [00:30:31] Speaker C: We're still here in the reading room below the library, and I'm going to start by asking Oskar, which languages do you speak? [00:30:39] Speaker A: Turkish and English. [00:30:41] Speaker C: You sent us an email. You brought some poems. [00:30:45] Speaker A: Yes. [00:30:45] Speaker C: Yeah. Do you want to start by reading one of them? [00:30:48] Speaker A: Yes. [00:30:49] Speaker C: And then we'll talk about why you brought them. [00:30:51] Speaker A: I brought few poems by Asaf Khaled Celebi. He lived between 1907 and 58, I think. My friend Nihan introduced this poet last year to me, so I want to thank to her as well. And there is this one poem called, which is already a very weird word. I think he created this word and I don't know if this was used back then. I wanted to read this because we can also try to translate this into other languages. Yeah. So, okay. It's called. [00:31:59] Speaker C: What would you like to translate? Let's give it a try. [00:32:02] Speaker A: Yeah. The title, this poem is like a rug talking. And there are kids coming to what how sorry. [00:32:19] Speaker B: It's like the water jumping on the rock. The rock is talking. [00:32:24] Speaker A: No, like a rug. And the kids are coming for doing the prayer on it. And it is talking about these little food and things like this. And it says my. How do you call this? [00:32:45] Speaker B: Threads. Weaving threads. [00:32:49] Speaker A: The more like figures decorate and. [00:32:53] Speaker C: Yeah, the figures. [00:32:55] Speaker A: There was a word for it. I can't remember. [00:32:57] Speaker E: Figures on the rug. [00:32:59] Speaker A: Yeah. Naksh is from Arabic. [00:33:06] Speaker D: Motifs. [00:33:07] Speaker A: Motifs, yes, motives. So, like, it says, my motives look like. And I've been dealing with. Since my childhood, I've been dealing a lot with nidirjiki, a ruler. And Nidir is. If I translate it to English, nidir is what is it? And Nidirjik is like in Dutch. So you make a little. What. What is it? And Yaoru is like sibling. So siblings of. What is it che? Or how do you say what is in Dutch? [00:33:45] Speaker G: What is the same thing? [00:33:47] Speaker A: What is Che? [00:33:51] Speaker C: It also reminds me a little bit of this dutch hip hop thing that I don't really know so well. But you know for sure what's gewirt. Yeah, like what happened or something. [00:34:00] Speaker B: Yeah. It was a word that someone. It was slang, basically. But then it became. It's funny, because my graduation project was about that word, actually. Yeah, because it was one day someone, you know, was this kind of slang word of what happened. What's a bird? And then this k pop group, the Jagdfontei Gerd, they took over that word from someone else. And they give. In the beginning of the song, they give a shout out to the person who was the first person saying the word heistrocker. They say props to the heistrocker for the Watzgewert. And then they go into the song. But it was interesting because that year, everyone was using it at one point. And it became, even in the NSA, this kind of serious newspaper, they used it as a headline of a news article. So then when it's more used in written language or there is a chance that it becomes part of the dictionary. So I tried to figure out, like I talked with. I ended with talking with the main editor of the main dictionary, if it had a chance. But then it needs to be. To become part of the dictionary in the Netherlands, it needs to be used a lot, especially in what is still seen as classical media. So written newspapers, television didn't make it in the end. But yeah. Sorry for this little parenthesis. [00:35:29] Speaker C: Now, do you think Watsge would be a version? Okay, did you ever translate into another language in English. Do you have any, like, do we have any hints for Arabic? Maybe for this one? Yeah. [00:35:49] Speaker A: No. So maybe Selim can. Yeah. I don't know. [00:35:54] Speaker G: Turkish? [00:35:55] Speaker A: Huh? [00:35:55] Speaker D: I don't know. Turkish. [00:35:58] Speaker A: No, like this. You mean this word, right? Like the word, like, what's. What is it? Like a small version of. Little version of. What is it? [00:36:09] Speaker D: Call it a tushia. [00:36:12] Speaker A: Tushir. [00:36:15] Speaker D: Tushir. Tushir is like a little thing, you. [00:36:21] Speaker A: Know, like a little. What is it? [00:36:25] Speaker E: A little. What is it? [00:36:27] Speaker G: But he. [00:36:28] Speaker D: He invented this word? [00:36:31] Speaker A: I think so. Okay. I mean, I think he invented it, but I'm not sure if this generation was using it. I tried to look at it, but didn't find many things. He was playing with these words, and we don't have. [00:36:46] Speaker E: It's funny because there's a little. Is there a big. [00:36:50] Speaker B: What is it? [00:36:51] Speaker E: I mean, it's just, like, the word what is it? That's all they. So we don't have a. A smaller or whatever. It just is Indon, and that's it. [00:37:05] Speaker A: But do you have something, like, in Dutch, which makes something smaller, something pretty tinier? [00:37:12] Speaker E: I understand. I only know not to add to a word. Afrikaans has that, and that's ki. Yeah. So, like, clanki or bra. [00:37:23] Speaker B: Ki. [00:37:24] Speaker E: Whatever. In Afrikaans. It's funny how I only know that in Afrikaans, but in my language, we don't have that. We kind of describe it as a small thing. It's not thing that is added to a word. Yeah, little. [00:37:40] Speaker B: What is it? [00:37:42] Speaker G: But you can say, like. Like, e after it, right? Like. Or is like, a rookie. Is that it? Like, a smaller version? No. I don't know. Like, what. What do you say? [00:37:54] Speaker C: Indoni. [00:37:57] Speaker E: Like, yindoni is. What is it? [00:38:00] Speaker C: And then Yindoniki would be the hybrid. [00:38:07] Speaker E: If it's, like, a person. Yeah. Then there's a. There's a. There's a. There's a name for, like, ndwana or ndana. Like that. Like, that denotes the little boy, but for. For other objects or, like, non humanly things. There just isn't. Yeah. It would be a more descriptive approach to addressing something. [00:38:31] Speaker C: Maybe. Oscar, I wanted to ask you something about a line that you sent us, because you also sent us a song, and we're going to listen to it in a second. But you wrote that sometimes you found yourself thinking in English, and it makes you feel bad. [00:38:46] Speaker A: Yes. [00:38:47] Speaker C: First of all, I was wondering, what are the moments when you think in English? [00:38:51] Speaker A: It can be anything about a work or just like, well, I have to get a glass of something. Like this. I mean, because since I'm here every day I speak English and then it becomes quicker to think. And also. Yeah, the speed is an interesting thing. Maybe I can say a few things about this. When I came here, I was feeling like a puppy in the highway. Everyone was like flying with English and like, oh, and then I could start to catch up a bit. Especially like jokes. I like making jokes in my own language or in English. But as soon as I start to translate the joke that comes to my mind, it's already gone, like, you know. But my partner is visiting sometimes. Last time she was here. Oh, okay, so you started doing some jokes also. [00:39:54] Speaker C: The puppy in the highways. Already. [00:39:56] Speaker B: Puppy in the highways. Wow. [00:40:00] Speaker C: You'Re becoming a Doberman. [00:40:02] Speaker B: In the beginning everyone thought you were very serious. Maybe we're not able to make jokes. [00:40:07] Speaker A: But also now, because we are coming to this open days, things speeded up a bit mentally. Also, I found myself using turkish words when I talking to people. The speed of translation cannot catch up with my speech. And I use words like if, what if but. Or no. Yes, of course, things like this are slipping in Turkish. And I did it many times since like two, three weeks, which I enjoy, actually. [00:40:40] Speaker C: I think it also happens to me that I have some german words if I'm tired, for example, it's more difficult to control, like all the languages in your head. I also think in Dutch sometimes, but it's like practical stuff, I think. [00:40:54] Speaker B: Makes sense. [00:40:57] Speaker D: Practical. [00:40:57] Speaker B: First of all, quite practical. [00:41:02] Speaker C: Yeah, but it makes you feel bad when you think in English. [00:41:05] Speaker A: Yes, I feel guilty. [00:41:07] Speaker C: Towards whom? [00:41:09] Speaker A: To my mother tongue? No, like. I don't know, like I feel bad. Like why? I'm. You feel like somebody else. [00:41:23] Speaker D: As if you're being possessed. [00:41:25] Speaker A: Yes, possessed. Yeah, yeah, it's a. Yeah, it's that feeling. Totally. [00:41:30] Speaker C: That's also part of the song that you sent us, right? [00:41:34] Speaker A: Yeah, actually it's not part of the song, but I like to think of this. I mean, this song is written to a lover, but you can. When you think if it's written to your mother tongue, it also makes sense. Maybe it's a bit abusive to think it in a way and root to the poet, but we can give it a try. Maybe, I don't know. [00:41:55] Speaker B: And who is this song by? [00:41:57] Speaker A: The song is by Fikrit Kuzlok, singer from sixties, seventies, eighties. He died in the nineties of a heart attack. And the words are by a poet named Naz Mechmet, one of the most well known turkish poets in the world, I think. And he was in jail between 38 and 50 and he wrote these poems to his partner from jail. [00:42:34] Speaker C: And I'm gonna quote from your email to us. [00:42:36] Speaker D: It says. [00:42:36] Speaker C: One line says that the worst thing is that someone carries the jail in him her with or without knowing. So let's listen to this song. [00:42:59] Speaker G: Bizarre Benado Sinodwalar. [00:43:10] Speaker C: As Linkutusani in sanunkindi. [00:43:15] Speaker G: Chindatashimasa insanjobuhala namuslu chalashkam I insanity sama saved him. Kadar savil me like in sama sinitushu make gizarche imitlish. [00:44:04] Speaker C: When you send us this email, I realized that I have a book by Nazim Hikmet. How do you pronounce his name correctly? [00:44:13] Speaker A: Nazim Nazm. [00:44:14] Speaker C: Nazim Nazmi Kmita. And I think my parents gave it to me. It's quite a nice addition. It's like, on the right it's German and on the left is Turkish and it's his poems. This one is not in there. We tried to find it earlier, but there is another one that's quite long. I'm not going to read the whole thing, but I want to quote to you two lines in German. It's meine Werke Werten and Dreisig Wirzigsprachengedruckt and Minor Turkai and mine in Turkish. And Zifurboden. I thought maybe you want to read it in Turkish. Yeah, I think it's these. So basically it says, my works are being printed in 30, 40 languages, but in my Turkey, in my Turkish, they are forbidden. And I thought this was striking because we talk about how English is an oppressive language and how we are kind of forced to use it. But there are also situations, I think, where one can't use their own language, which is kind of the ultimate colonial gesture sometimes. But then again, there are also situations, I think, where what you want to say in your own language can't be said in your own language. And I was wondering what your feelings are about the situation and if you experience something similar, how you feel about that. [00:45:45] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, there are people's work who just can't. They show them. In Turkey, we have a collective called Bachoy co op printing, duplication and distribution cooperative. And we made a performance in Sweden, which we cannot do in Turkish. So it was in English. And, yeah, it's a. When. If we use this text in Turkey, it's a problem. So. Yeah, but then why we did it in Sweden, it's. I mean, yeah, we could do it, but what does it mean to do it in Sweden? In English? It's not maybe too different than not being able to do it in Turkey. In Turkish, I'm not sure. Yeah. [00:46:36] Speaker D: I often think about not only having this kind of languages stacked in your head, but also the hierarchy that is put in place. Like sometimes I see the Netherlands or Amsterdam. If you grew up here, you go, the main language is Dutch. And then you go, turn the tv on and it's in Dutch. You watch an ad and it's in Dutch. There's a bit of English, maybe Netflix, something. And then in the street. But it's this harmony that I'm not familiar with. Just in my specific case. At home we speak Moroccan and French. And I went to a spanish school, so I had spanish literature, mathematics in Spanish. Plus there's this English that goes to the side. You turn the tv on. And some early, when I was a child, there was tv and it was a satellite for some reason. The signal was really strong from Germany. So I grew up watching RTL cartoons and it's just a mess. And sometimes I feel like. I wish everything was a kind of harmonious and made sense. And I would think in one stream of thought, and I don't have to mix all these languages. It's a mess because I speak these languages. But I crumbles. They are all not good. Not really good. We speak. It's like. Yeah, it's terrible. But then that's how I like to see it sometimes, as a blessing. And then think of all the ways that you can use this. This hierarchy and this. These like displaced languages, for example, where you can not only do use a language to expose something, but to, you know, protect it and have an intimacy that you can't achieve other ways or just. I mean, you can. [00:48:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:48:37] Speaker D: So that's what I feel, that and I wonder about these hierarchies of things all the time. Why you feel ashamed of speaking a certain language and why more proud from another. Why is this like a colonial thing? Is it just how things went over time? Sometimes, I don't know. [00:49:04] Speaker A: But it's very. [00:49:05] Speaker D: Interesting for work, definitely. [00:49:09] Speaker C: You also mentioned once to us that you were putting on small exhibitions in a window. And you were talking about one of the interviews you did. [00:49:19] Speaker D: Yeah, this was back in Groningen two years ago. We used to do these exhibitions in a window space. And one day my chinese friend Taiping said to me, no, I don't feel like speaking English today. I will speak Chinese like, all right, students. And it's really good. And he told me? [00:49:39] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:49:39] Speaker D: I hired a translator who is another friend of mine, Angus. And his English is like half of Taiping's English. So it was. It was hilarious. It was hilarious. He was really funny. And. And these, like, small gaps of nonsense where just you get suddenly, like, some images in your head that are just beautiful, you know? And I love those moments when they happen. Sometimes it's too abstract, but you get these sparks in your head of some weird translation. It's very nice. [00:50:18] Speaker B: I'm still thinking about the performance. You mentioned that you couldn't do it in Turkey and then you did it in Sweden, but then you did it in English. I'm still wondering, could you have imagined that you would still do that performance in Turkish, but then in Sweden, where you would have, you know, the risk of the people in Sweden not understanding you. But, I mean, there's also probably a turkish community in Sweden, but smaller. Did you consider that, to just do it in Turkish? But then. [00:50:48] Speaker A: No, no, we didn't consider it. Yeah. I mean, the audience was mostly english speaking people, and I think the institution would be unhappy. And we also wanted to communicate what's been going on. These things were, like, from recent things happening in Turkey, but the audience was looking at us. I felt like that, like, okay, why are you telling this about, like, why are you telling the stories? Stories? Yeah. I mean, we don't really care, so. Why. And. Yeah, it's. [00:51:29] Speaker B: Yeah, because I was thinking of this care because it matters for you a lot and for the people that you make the performance with. Right. [00:51:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:51:37] Speaker B: So the work exists also, even if it's not public or understood to make it and to keep it. Also, maybe there will be time when you can make it public in your language in another context. [00:51:52] Speaker A: Yeah, probably. But it's also kind of being complicit with the censorship in Turkey. We could have. Do it, done it, push it in Turkey and see what happens. But, like, yeah, it's. Then you might get jailed or your passport might be taken, so you fear. And. [00:52:13] Speaker B: Or you could do it in a non public way, in a more secret way. Maybe. [00:52:16] Speaker A: Yeah, maybe. [00:52:20] Speaker C: You brought another poem. The tale of the sad lion and the loyal thorn. [00:52:27] Speaker A: Yes. [00:52:28] Speaker C: Why did you bring this one? [00:52:29] Speaker A: Because I write really short stories for my works. And in Turkish, you don't have gender in language. And every time I translate, I have to choose a gender. Especially for a short story, you don't have to choose a gender if you write a longer thing, you have to know who the character is. And this translation is a translation thing, is an issue. So I tried different things to overcome this. So this piece was shown in Berlin. So I used. I made a video with the german translation and the sound was the turkish version of the story I was reading. So I just. Yeah, as a solution to translation, I wrote this. Alama Slankardish ghetto bakbam burden sinin name tenine etina or tom sanre benorea meraketme alama san et banturnak hadiyap mahataratk din lambiras yum yo zirim to the ayana bird ham koshtu hamalad. [00:55:30] Speaker C: So, yeah, you were reading this and maybe can you give us a quick rundown of the story? [00:55:40] Speaker A: Yeah, the story is like this. It's a loop. There is this lion who has a thorn in its feet, in its foot. And the lion sees a dream that it is running and running, and then they thorn is pricked into its foot and then he starts to cry, but keeps on going, running and running. He cannot wake up. It cannot wake up. Like a nightmare. And then the thorn, the loyal thorn in its foot, starts to move to wake it up and says, like, I'm here, don't worry, calm down. And the lion wakes up and then calms down and then starts to feel sleepy and falls asleep and starts to see the same nightmare and, like, starts to cry again. [00:56:37] Speaker B: It's quite impressive to see it live. [00:56:39] Speaker A: As well, only for. [00:56:42] Speaker G: Yeah, it's funny because we talked about this in the writing workshop and then we read it in English and now I heard the thing in Turkish. Didn't realize it was the same thing, but it was like total different world where we at, like, I like the turkish version. Like, the sound is so nice. [00:57:03] Speaker A: Thank you. I wanted to hear the sound of someone reading because if I read the english version, it feels, like, funny. [00:57:12] Speaker G: Yeah, because you wrote it, like. And it's very different than the actual sound, actually, it's much more funnier on paper. [00:57:22] Speaker A: Thank you. It's the english translation of ah, I'm in sleep asleep. [00:57:35] Speaker E: As you. I'm learning some words here. Let's see what you repeated three times and where it was decoding Turkish. [00:57:45] Speaker B: But yeah, maybe it's good to also involved Bert a bit more. You're on the mic already. But yeah, I'm also thinking, because we heard also some music and your work is your work with music, with text. A lot of your songs or works, they have a certain there about histories, but I think often overlooked histories or small things, maybe from daily life or things that are a bit obscure and that you bring out again, or certain characters or people could be maybe heroes to some, but kind of unknown heroes a little bit, as far as I know. You mainly work in Dutch, right? [00:58:30] Speaker G: Yeah, I work with translations also, but the original versions are always in Dutch. Maybe it's because all the stories are happening in Dutch, or I picked them up in Dutch and I tried things with translation, but always the versions in Dutch seem so because it's often about this language and change of language and how language travels. So. Yeah, language is the material there. Yeah. So that's the reason. And it's often about dutch things, dutch histories. [00:59:06] Speaker B: Yeah. Because it's. I'm wondering how you do it here also, when you want to share your work. I'm not even talking about announcing work or exhibiting, but also about you want to discuss it maybe with your peers here or with other people. And how do you do that? [00:59:27] Speaker G: I describe what it's about. Yeah, it's always. It comes down to English again. So it's about describing what is happening in it. For the record I'm making now, I made like eleven songs and I wanted to translate them, but I never found a good way to do it. So what I came with now is that I just translate the context of what is happening and where it's happening. So it's just a very short story or anecdote which describes this and this is happening. And then the song should also work in another language, but not understanding the language, which is maybe a bit similar. [01:00:08] Speaker B: To the situation we just had. We heard the poem or the work and that we later got a kind of capturing what it was about, but we didn't do a real translation in English. [01:00:20] Speaker G: Yeah, and I'm also interested in. Okay, there's stuff left out when you don't know the language, but how much information is there to get it? And do you need everything? Maybe not. So I'm also interested in that and playing with that. Yeah, I'm also listening to a lot of music, of lyrics I don't understand, which I enjoy a lot. And, yeah, sometimes I look it up, but sometimes I don't and that's fine, I guess. But yeah, it's also. It's playing with the amount of information you give or the amount of translation. [01:00:58] Speaker B: Yeah, there was also. When thinking of today, I thought of a very different moment, which doesn't. I don't know, maybe it does relate to your work but isn't your work, but does relate to you. Because last year when there was a party, I think after open studios, I suddenly heard a song, kose Albert, and that is, I think. I think almost no one in the room was very excited about it. [01:01:25] Speaker G: I played it. [01:01:25] Speaker B: I was very excited about it. Who is playing Kohl's Albert here? [01:01:30] Speaker E: Yeah. [01:01:30] Speaker G: There was also one frenchman who really likes it. [01:01:34] Speaker C: But who is Koh Albert? [01:01:35] Speaker G: Yeah. [01:01:36] Speaker B: Maybe you should explain. [01:01:38] Speaker G: Yeah. He's this singer from. He's most known from the song I tear your picture. But this is just the song I played was a love song. I was really into that song at the moment. At that moment. I played a lot of these local pirate radio stations last year, also this year. But this is one I catch there. And I thought it stuck with me somehow. And it's just also the way he has a very peculiar voice. Yeah. [01:02:14] Speaker B: He has this accent, I guess, that people would call because I looked it up on YouTube, because I was very, when I thought of today, I was thinking of that song again and I had to hear it again. It's a bit of an addictive song. And then I saw in the comments, people said, oh, ko, he passed away. And people were original, very emotional touch still by the song, I think. And they said, oh, he has this wonderful. Your dance, your DNA stem. So it's this. Yeah, yeah. [01:02:43] Speaker G: It's from where some of you live, actually. Yeah. [01:02:48] Speaker C: In a neighborhood in Amsterdam, right? [01:02:50] Speaker G: Yeah. [01:02:51] Speaker C: Former workers, working class neighborhoods. [01:02:53] Speaker G: Yeah, yeah. It's also, I think it's just a very good love and party song. So. [01:03:00] Speaker B: Of course. But I was also thinking about it because this Jordanais, this way of speaking, you don't hear it often in Amsterdam anymore. No, I mean, many people, it's a very international city. But also dutch people who live here don't always speak with this accent. That is. Yeah. [01:03:21] Speaker G: Well, the most you hear of it now is like in television crime series like Udos or something, where you see the criminal, like, well known criminal talk, this language, which is a total different way of looking. Well, way of looking at it from the outside. Like, of course, in Amsterdam you sometimes hear it, but not as often anymore. Yeah. [01:03:43] Speaker B: And I also thought, like, when you. So, you know, when someone suddenly hears gauze Albert, you don't only hear, for instance, in this context that you played it. I didn't only hear that. Oh, that's a dutch song. I know. I can understand the words because I'm Dutch. But it's also a context of this accent. It's more like a working class kind of song or that people would play. They wouldn't play it everywhere. It's in specific context, because Albert is appreciated. So there's also this whole culture around. And when I thought of your work, because you do things in Dutch, you are also able maybe to reach people in different ways or other people compared to. If you would do everything in English, you would have been more understandable. Maybe here in the Rex academy, but not necessarily in other contexts. [01:04:39] Speaker G: Yeah. Because it's also still, like a lot of people don't speak English also in the Netherlands or not as good. It's not the reason I like. Yeah, I also want to reach those people, but it's not the primarily reason I would choose. It's just that the stories all happen in Dutch and that the way I find it are bits of lyrics, or I find a lot of subjects, like in comments or like these old forums or like the places of the Internet, which is about to disappear. Like these kind of homemade websites, like Homestead or personal website of someone from 2003. You can really see this won't be up that long anymore. And it's also a kind of language which is disappearing or kind of personal space which is disappearing. Yeah. So it's like a time machine also in that sense. Also that goes. Albert songs also, like at that time, Gesellach. [01:05:49] Speaker B: Gesellach is often mentioned as one of the few words you can translate, but. [01:05:54] Speaker C: It'S actually exactly the same word in German. Gazelle. [01:06:00] Speaker D: I like the fact that you do it in Dutch. You perform in Dutch as well. Because I remember some words got really stuck with me, like, yeah, yeah, I don't know what it is, but it's in my head all the time, so I kind of. [01:06:15] Speaker A: It's. It's. It's. [01:06:16] Speaker D: I like this moment of wondering what that word is. And then. But also the strategy you use, as you said, you mention a context in English, but the real context is in. Is in Dutch. I remember this teacher, I had helped me a lot with this advice when I was writing some application. He said, hey, you should use words as paint brushes, like thinking of the color and texture. And I never thought of that before, but I like that. For example, in your case, you give the texture and the tone and the colors through how you perform. And then maybe the. The medium or the lino. I don't know what it is. Canvas is in English, so I found it a really nice advice or reminder. [01:07:06] Speaker G: Yeah, yeah. [01:07:07] Speaker A: Cool. [01:07:09] Speaker B: Maybe it's nice to listen to a song because you're working well, you just finished a new album. [01:07:16] Speaker G: Yeah. And the album is called physical biographies, and it collects, like, songs from performances and podcasts. I made like the last years. So this, I think the thing you are playing, it's the metropolitan. Yeah, it's apart from audio tour, which I made for Oarshake festival, which is like a podcasting festival for the Bracken Grund. And it took place in this center of Amsterdam. And I was looking outside there and I saw all these tourists walking by and. Yeah, I combined tweets of people who hate the tourists in Amsterdam with my own thoughts. Like, I travel every day from Rotterdam to Amsterdam and every day I pass hippo and I see all the tourists coming, see them enter Amsterdam. And I was often frustrated with them as well. So, yeah, it's kind of found language and my own thoughts mixed. [01:08:27] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:08:28] Speaker B: And I think it's three parts, right? [01:08:30] Speaker G: Yeah. [01:08:30] Speaker B: And I think I picked the second part also because it starts with a small reference to language. Also to the speaking of English. [01:08:42] Speaker C: Five. [01:08:44] Speaker A: The fay best english. [01:09:21] Speaker C: Popcorn vern coffee belafness so full so blaze. [01:10:42] Speaker G: Safe the hail of nurse for new mutated console. [01:10:57] Speaker B: Build a dike. [01:11:05] Speaker F: Meanwhile. [01:12:33] Speaker G: Tart far and music female. [01:12:46] Speaker C: And. [01:12:52] Speaker B: So you listen to the. Very much enjoyed it. [01:13:00] Speaker G: Thank you. [01:13:01] Speaker B: So when is it out already? [01:13:03] Speaker G: No, it's gonna be released during the Rex open on the 23rd. [01:13:08] Speaker B: Release party. [01:13:09] Speaker G: Yeah, kind of release party. [01:13:11] Speaker B: And are you going to perform it live also? [01:13:14] Speaker G: I'm probably doing one song and. Well, I do some other performances in my studio, which like this kind of collects all the works and the performance of last year also. So I will do one song and then do some other performs as well. [01:13:30] Speaker B: Great. [01:13:33] Speaker A: It was interesting. This might be a translation approach, like you have the context in English and because first you see someone anxious and then becomes different emotions. And I was thinking, okay, I know the context. So these are the moods, so I can adapt it to Turkish somehow. Yeah. [01:13:58] Speaker G: Thank you. [01:13:58] Speaker A: Nice to know the context and listen it in another language. And it's a more maybe even productive process than hearing it in English. [01:14:10] Speaker G: Thanks. [01:14:13] Speaker C: I can't help but wonder what would have happened if we would have avoided English altogether for this. In the end, we spoke so much English. [01:14:20] Speaker B: I know. [01:14:21] Speaker C: If you would have also been able to get them, if you would have also been able to understand the mood and follow the conversation because. Yeah, I think we all been in situations where you really don't understand anything. [01:14:33] Speaker A: Right. [01:14:33] Speaker C: And after a while, if the people around you are, may make you feel comfortable. I don't really mind it so much. You can kind of follow what's going on in the end. [01:14:43] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:14:43] Speaker C: There are certain collective moments that you understand after all yeah. [01:14:47] Speaker D: I was thinking that. [01:14:50] Speaker A: From you or. [01:14:51] Speaker D: Any of us speaking mother tongue, that, I mean, you listening to you speaking Dutch, I get the mother side of you, you know? And I appreciate that. And that's a good piece of, you know, then the rest follows. But I think that if it was in English, I would miss that. [01:15:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:15:14] Speaker G: That's often what I, what I experienced. [01:15:16] Speaker C: When I do. [01:15:17] Speaker D: It's really nice to have it somewhere in the work. Yeah, that's it. [01:15:45] Speaker B: Nokankiran adsense offered it on the verb gut and. [01:15:53] Speaker C: Dank. [01:15:57] Speaker B: Thank you. [01:15:58] Speaker G: Thank you, Al. Thank you.